Is this a bad time to say Lolita is one of my favorite books?

[pettycoat]

I've just been told to avoid writing protagonists with problematic views because their status as the protagonist means I'm automatically supporting their actions.

... I think I need to find a new writing group, guys.

Comments

[taichara]

No kidding, yo.

If you can set the group on fire as you leave, even better.

[pettycoat]

Ha, that'll show 'em I don't condone violent behavior. :P

[taichara]

Desperate times, desperate measures ;3~

[rionaleonhart]

Oh, wow, that is horrible writing advice.

[pettycoat]

The sad thing is, this person has given me excellent advice until now. I'm hoping we can patch things up, but yikes.

[rosehiptea]

Don't you know we're now all responsible for writing pure wholesome uplifting stories? (sarcasm) Yeah, time for a new group.

[pettycoat]

I seriously wonder how these sorts of writers are able to write the same protagonist over and over again. Like I have no issues with writing kind, wholesome characters, but having every character reflect my beliefs would get boring fast.

[setsuntamew]

Thaaaaat is absolutely terrible advice, wtf :T Definitely find a new writing group asap, because that attitude is not good for creativity!

[pettycoat]

Thanks, I'm just hoping to find another group willing to tear my writing apart. This one has been great until now.

[kurgaya]

Oh wow yikes. It kinda sounds like you do need a new writing group ^^;

[pettycoat]

Yeah, it's unfortunate because I liked this group. I was really starting to get into another member's novel, and it's such a pain to find someone willing to honestly critique my writing. I'm hoping we can patch things up, even if it means having to find a second group in the meantime.

[kurgaya]

Well good luck for patching things up!! :) Or finding a second group, whichever works best for you :)

[hibiscustea]

Uh. That's ... different. Also, not how writing works. Or reading. I think you might be right about a new reading group.

[pettycoat]

It definitely wasn't what I was expecting. Anything to keep me on my toes, I guess.

[hibiscustea]

It's definitely something that would take me aback, for sure!

[storme]

Wow, get the hell out.

(Also Lolita is an amazing book.)

[pettycoat]

Yup. I'll probably stay in contact with this person, but I'm much more cautious about receiving their feedback now. A writer who can't separate reality from fiction worries me. (And it is! It's heartbreaking to know so many people think it promotes pedophilia.)

[zabimitsuki]

Err, what? Yeah, run as fast as you can!

[pettycoat]

That was about my reaction when I first heard this. I'm already looking for another group.

[eggsbenedict]

Hahahaha woooow. Yeah, probably time to get out.

[pettycoat]

Trust me, I'm searching. But a part of me kind of wants to see what other advice I can wring out of this person.

[kalloway]

That is impressively terrible advice. Run while you can.

[pettycoat]

Yup. It explains a lot about how this person writes their protagonists, honestly.

[anaraine]

Ahaha. Because protagonists must always be shining pictures of morality and justice and would never have a problematic thought in their head! /s

Good luck on finding a new writing group - I can't imagine this one would be at all helpful if that's the kind of advice they're spewing.

[pettycoat]

They actually have been very helpful up until now. It's always been hard for me to find a group that will honestly critique my writing, and I'm hesitant to leave this one behind. But. Yeah. Heck of a thing to wake up to.

[aim_of_destiny]

nthed. you definitely need a new group. maybe link the old one to a few articles about the difference between fiction and reality, and the value of humanising villainous characters.

[pettycoat]

That's definitely tempting. This person's advice also explains a lot of problems I saw in their writing. They have a gift for description and a lot of cool ideas when it comes to worldbuilding, but their characters are... lacking. I figured it was just a difference in personal preference since I favor character-driven stories over plot-driven stories, but now I'm having second thoughts.

[aim_of_destiny]

good lord.
sounds like they'd be excellent at writing d&d campaigns (since main characters are added later by the players). but somehow i doubt they'd appreciate the suggestion - because if they only ever do moral protagonists, they might be a christian author (tm).

[pettycoat]

It's actually the opposite. They're far, far left. Like even farther than me. They still have strengths as a writer, but we strongly disagree on how to write LGBT+ characters and hit a few snags because both of us have LGBT+ characters in major roles. This person is the type who thinks a character's sexuality defines them, and though I don't think they're doing it consciously, all of their heroes are either sex-obsessed gay men or man-hating butch lesbians, any of their "bisexual" characters are gay people in denial, and most of their villains are cartoonish homophobes. They also think it's wrong to give a queer or POC character major flaws. Like I want to like this person and greatly appreciate a lot of the feedback they've given me, but we just don't see eye to eye on character writing.

[aim_of_destiny]

i mean. i don't know that person from a hole in the ground, so my opinions are going to be less nuanced than they could be, that's just how things go. just going by your descriptions, though, their line of argument sounds shockingly similar to the most cultish right-wing christian rethoric i've ever read.

in general i find, quite often, that people will call themselves leftists and then spout radfem/libertarian bullshit c&p'd directly from the evangelical christian purity culture playbook. which makes you wonder what they think leftism/liberalism actually is. maybe people just fall (back?) into established cultural patterns.

either way, on questions of representation i'd only ever take into account what people from the particular marginalized group have to say about it.

[littlestclouds]

Yeah... Might be time for a new group. @___@

[pettycoat]

I'm already looking, trust me. It's unfortunate. I really liked this group. :(

[masu_trout]

That's... huh. My sympathies, I'm not sure what you could possibly do with writing advice (or, uh, 'advice') like that.

(I honestly can't think of any protagonists who don't have at least some problematic views - I'm really wondering what this person considers Problematic Enough to disqualify someone from protag status now.)

[pettycoat]

They've given me good advice before, but... yeah. (In their defense, the "problematic" character is downplaying another character's sexual abuse, but it's in the context that the problematic character was abused himself and plays things down as a coping mechanism, and he tries to make amends for it later. If that doesn't come across in my writing, it's completely my fault, but the person giving this advice has a history of writing heroic characters with zero flaws, so I'm not quite sure what to make of this.)

[mudousetsuna]

I apologize for jumping in on this thread, but... I personally don't think it needs to be explicitly clear that the character is using it as a coping mechanism, not like, spelled out to the reader. That is something they gain FROM READING MORE OF THE STORY. And through reading more of the story, it's quite possible your narrative may have him grow or at least discover he's not in the right. If the story's purpose is not to be a parable, then it's literally just about the journey of your protagonist and what he experiences. That may or may not be what your beta or whoever this is is looking to read, but that doesn't make your protagonist a bad character.

[pettycoat]

No worries. I agree with you! The character's abuse is only ever implied (heavily implied, granted), but I think the reader mostly had a problem with the character's behavior because the implications don't start coming in until much later in the story. I strongly disagree with this person's reasoning, but I think my draft can still be tightened a bit in that regard. I had an earlier draft that was less subtle about the abuse, but I ended up throwing it out because I thought it was too heavy-handed. I think I just need to find a happy medium. It's a sensitive subject.

[mudousetsuna]

BRB burning my deathnote stuff.

Oh wait.

That's ridiculous. Flaws are interesting! The more flawed, the more twists your story can have, in the right writer's hands!

[pettycoat]

Oh my god the cringeworthy arguments I used to have about Death Note. My best friend was part of the "Kira Did Nothing Wrong" crowd. It certainly made our conversations interesting.

I agree. I just have to wonder if I'm the "right" writer, y'know?

[mudousetsuna]

Don't be so hard on yourself! Even if you might struggle to portray it all well or how you want to, you can always improve on it. The concept of flawed characters isn't the problem here. It's close-minded readers superimposing their pearl clutching values onto the writer as if the story itself speaks for you and your personal views. Not everyone can separate reality from fiction, but I think personally if you start second guessing your characters instead of just letting the story itself form then the end product is just going to be boring. You can always go over the finished product or chapters individually to be sure that it's clearly told, but... I don't think you need to dumb it down. I would personally hate reading a story like that.

[pettycoat]

Thank you. I'm my own worst critic and try to keep myself open to all criticism, even if I don't always agree with it, and the constant second guessing is a problem I need to work on. Better to have a terrible draft than yet another abandoned project.